Monday Munchies...Food for Thought: Alcohol
Sorry I’m late guys, was doing some interesting conversating with my roommates. Anywho, thanks to popular demand, here it is…the Alcohol Monday Munchies. First an additional disclaimer to my blog, What I say is not Gospel…just my opinions. That being said, I’m gonna give some facts about what the bible says about alcohol, what C.S. Lewis says, and what I think. Its prolly gonna make several people mad... good. My desire is that you study, think about, and pray about this issue so that you understand where God stands, not that you agree with me. If you want to argue or defend another opinion, feel free to post up my comments section.
We’ll start with the central truth of the Christian faith…Jesus. What did Jesus have to say about alcohol? I guess yall saw this coming, but in Chapter 2 of John, Jesus performs His first miracle. He turns water into wine. Now this has several implications, not the least of which were His mother pushing Him to do it and the embarrassment He saved the bride’s father. How ever I think it is critically important that in verse 10, it says that most people wait till the end to serve bad wine, because everyone has drunk so much they can’t tell the difference. Speaking from personal experience, bad/cheap wine is very easy to tell from good wine. This leads me to believe that these people in order to not be able to tell the difference had a lot of wine…in other words they were very tipsy if not drunk.
Later, Jesus commands His disciples to take the wine cup as His blood as part of what we now know as Communion (Luke 22:14-18). Not really as big of a statement, but I think it’s important to note that Jesus was sitting around drinking wine.
This is pretty biased towards drinking as an ok thing. The Old Testament does say that it is not wise to get drunk in Proverbs.
C.S. Lewis says that Christianity is the religion of moderation; therefore we should take things in moderation, including alcohol. He says a little isn’t bad, but a lot is.
Here’s what I think. I don’t see it as a sin to drink. I don’t see it as a sin to get drunk (although I do find it highly unwise). I believe that we are responsible for our actions weather we are drunk or sober. So if we commit a sin when we are drunk, we are still held accountable for that action. Let me clarify that being drunk once and being addicted to alcohol are different things. Alcoholics should not drink, period. Dont confuse me sayin someone who is drunk with someone who is a drunkard. (I suppose it could be argued where you draw the line)
Just something to think about…I bet people are a little upset so light up my comments with why I’m wrong. If you think I am, if you think I’m right, let me hear that too.
PS. Make sure you read the comments to see what other people think too!
10 comments:
Well I figured I would be the first to respond so that we can see both sides of the topic. I don't disagree with everything Aaron says but I don't agree with everything. Nor should anyone completely agree with anyone else, we are all different.
However, concerning the topic of alcohol.
I think we must understand that when it comes to sin, we are all individually held accountable for our own actions. Therefore something that may be a sin for one person may not be a sin for another. For example, guys our girls, you may be able to kiss your bf or gf and not lust about him/her while you do it. For some people, they cannot kiss another person without having sexual thoughts. So for one person it may not be a sin to kiss and for the other it could be a sin. The same thing happens with issues of pride and greed with certain activities.
Now I do think that there are plenty of things that are sins for everyone. Any command given to us by Jesus would definitely be a sin. I think we all would agree.
I feel that being "drunk" is a sin. I don't see how anyone could be drunk and not sin. Aaron said that being drunk itself wasn't a sin, but the actions you committed while be drunk were the sin.
So then I propose: Is watching pornography a sin? Or is the resulting action of lust, or adultery that follows a sin?
I think that separating one from the other is impossible. I think almost everyone would agree that viewing pornography is a sin because the actions associated with viewing it are sins.
So I think we can make the same conclusion considering being drunk. You cannot separate the actions associated with being drunk from the physical and mental state of drunkeness itself--they are inseparable.
Now lets look at this biblically.
The word drunk is referenced 63 times in the NIV translation. I read everyone of the references. In not one of the references is being drunk associated with being righteous or holy. In fact its the exact opposite. Everytime someone is mentioned as being drunk they are looked upon in a negative matter, most of the times they are associating their drunkeness with other sins.
Paul however has some very specific things to say about Drunkeness.
He says that we should behave decently and not be in the state of drunkeness(Rom 13:13). That we should not associate with a drunkard(1 Cor 5:11). that drunkards will not inherit the Kingdom of God(1 Cor. 6:10 and Gal 5:21). That we are to "not get drunk on wine"(Eph. 5:18). That again we should not be associated with or given to drunkeness(1 Tim 3:3, Titus 1:7, 1 Pet 4:3).
I think it is safe to say that being drunk or in the state of drunkeness is a sin. If for no other reason than what 1 Pet 4:3 says, that we have spent enough time in the past living like Pagans and that we should now be holy as God is holy. I don't remember Jesus being drunk, do you?
Another thing, we are not to do anything that may cause another Brother or Sister to stumble (1 Cor 10:31-33). I think thats where we see the whole Alcohol issue playing to its fullest. Being drunk ruins your testimony and causes other people to think less of yourself and your faith. That has to be a sin.
Now some final statemets.
1. Being drunk is a sin. Drunkeness leads to debauchery which is extreme indulgence into sensual pleasures. Both of which are sins.
2. Being drunk causes others to stumble and ruins your testimony. This is the case especially here in the South or the Bible Belt. This may be different for someone in NYC or Europe where alcohol and Christian combined may not be viewed in such a negative sense. That brings up the question is drinking in those places a sin? You tell me.
3. Being Drunk is unwise and not holy. We shouldn't live out our faith asking Jesus, "how much can I get by with? or where is the line?", we should be trying to see how holy we can be.
Ok well enough of that. I know I talked more about being drunk than just alcohol. But I think if we consider being drunk a sin, then we atleast have some foundational grounds.
Now where I am undecided on is this:
What if I drink a glass of wine or a beer and don't get drunk? What if I drink this beer at a resturant in public?
What if I sit around with my Christian buddies at their house and drink but don't go in public or party?
What if I get drunk alone? or with a couple friends in private?
I don't know the answers to those questions and I don't think we can make a definite decsion on those questions. Again, sin comes down to an individual and a choice they make. Sin is between us and God and if God convicts you not to drink at all, then you shouldn't drink! If you can drink a beer at supper and not feel conviction then maybe your OK. I don't know, but I do know that "whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. (1 Cor. 10:31) So if you can drink and be drunk for the Glory of God then I have no argument!! Let me know if you figure it out!!!
I agree with Chance that being “drunk” is definitely a sin.
18Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. (Eph. 5:18)
And that it is compared as being the exact opposite of “filled with the Spirit” as Eph 5:18 says.
But I do think that drinking in moderation is allowed in some cases. The Bible does not list every sin that exist because it is impossible. But it does give us the wisdom to interpret, with the help of the Holy Spirit, whether or not it is ok for our situation. In the passage that Chance refers to in 1 Cor. 10:27-33, Paul says that if someone invites you to a meal you can eat without any concerns, unless someone brings up that it has been sacrificed to another god, which the meat that was found in the markets during that time typically was. This can also apply to drinking. It might not be a sin to drink alcohol in moderation, but if you are around someone who knows you are a Christian and thinks it is a sin for you to do so, then you are causing them to stumble and therefore guilty of sinning. In Jesus’ culture, as well as some places today, drinking alcohol was not considered wrong, so it was not a sin for Jesus to drink wine. In the “Bible Belt” where most people associate drinking alcohol with “sin or un-Christian”, it would be a sin to drink in front of them or cause them to stumble.
I think the Bible is clear on the topic of getting drunk, but drinking in moderation is determined by our culture or situation.
The only thing that I am not quite sure on yet is in reference to the wine parable in John 2. It shows Jesus making the wine and contributing to the drunkenness. Now if this was the case then Jesus would be causing someone to stumble and therefore guilty of a sin. I think that maybe the wine Jesus served was not fermented and basically just grape juice. I know that there are different Greek words used to describe wine in its various states, I don’t know which word is used here and its too late to look it up right now :), if you got any thoughts let me know.
I agree with both Chance and Walk on this one. No offense Aaron but I cannot see at all how you could say that you don't believe that getting drunk is a sin. After all it is a form of gluttony. Drunkenness is a sin regardless of who is around, just like lying and swearing, it doesn't matter if anyone is not around to see it it still happens. And the example example Chance used with the pornography was awesome. And I agree with Walk that we shouldn't do anything that can hurt our ministry and in our case, living in the buckle of the bible belt, I believe that overall drinking does when other people look at us, regardless of what we think personally.
Sorry Buddy, but I most definatley agree with the Big Spoon, Walk, and el chupacabra, and most importantley I agree with the Bible. Chance has listed most of the key verses, but I think it is important to seperate our modern culture from that of antiquity. We have so many choices of beverages to drink, where in the time of the Bible it was not the case. Fresh water was often hard to aquire in many areas of the Near East (modern Isreal and Palestine)unless you were near running water, or had a fresh spring you were not going to have clean water all the time. Wine was another alternative. As in other countries wine is a common beverage and over the years one's system can adapt to drinking it without becoming drunk. This with the fact that wine in Jesus's time would have not been as it is today, as Walk says, fermentation varied accordingly. I think it is a very bad mistatke to take our cutlure today and even remotley compare it to another time and place. But that is a disscussion for another day.
Further more, how can we as Christians behave in the same ways of the world? are we not to be called to a higher standard of living? How can I procalim the Gospel of Christ if I can't live a "transformed" life apart from the World (Romans 12:1-2). Where do we draw the line? Are drugs alright? If you give in a little you give in a lot. Moderation has been an idea since the time of Airstotle, but even moderation can lead to over indulgence if you get carried away.
Lastly, as to my own opinon if a person needs something to make them feel good, whether it is alchohol, drugs, or whatever then they should exam thier relationship with God. Does the the Spirit that now lives in you not satisfy you? Can you not be happy with out these things. For the only reason to get drunk in this day and age is not because the lack of alternative choices of beverages, but becasue a person wants to feel a high.
"Be very careful, then, how you live-not as unwise but as wise, making the most of every opportunity, becasue the days are evil. There fore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is. Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery, instead be filled wit the Spirit." (Ephesians 5:15-18)
I love you buddy, and there is always room for disscussion on any subject.
Wow, I always become indulged in these blogs and it is this one i will leave my first comment..
I have always been a non drinker (and everyone knows it) and recently a lot of my friends have decided to partake in Alcohol, mainly to get drunk.
I believe there is No way that a Christian can drink alcohol to the point of getting drunk and it not be a sin. I agree that the Bible BLATENTLY states it is a sin to get drunk.
Drinking in moderation I do not feel is a sin, BUT.. as (someone) said.. we are all convicted of our own sins, and it is up to us to Ask for that conviction.
But the bible does say do not cause your brother to stumble and THAT is where my main problem with people drinking (even a little) comes in.
If you are a christian and you are sitting around drinking one beer with your friends and there are non-christians there... they see you drinking that beer (not knowing you've limited yourself to one), then they will see that it is ok to drink and be a christian, and my guess is, they are not going to stop themselves with one... Therefore you have made us as Christians look bad and hypocritical and you have caused a non-christian to stumble unknowingly.. and that is something that most people are not conscious of...
Therefore if you just have to drink alcohol and you are not convicted of it.. it will be the wisest choice to do it alone, or in the company of parents or close friends that you have Talked about this with and there is an understanding of where you draw the line..
I am going to make this short and simple...gluttony is a sin...the definition of gluttony is excess eating or drinking; greedy or selfish indulgence. Getting drunk is not only excess drinking but is also selfish because it only serves one purpose and that is to alter your state of mind for physical pleasure. Yep thats all I have to say.
Conviction is a funny thing. Many, in my opinion are turned off to it. They don’t feel it. Look at people that think its right to download music because of the “monopoly” corporations. It doesn’t matter if you don’t like the company or not, it’s still stealing. Sorry. It’s still a sin. They don’t feel the conviction of it. If they do, then they are ignoring it and therefore are choosing to ignore God. I may not agree with God sometimes, but I know that he is right. Now that doesn’t mean you can’t look at the songs that are available or even go to another site and listen to the song, but when you give in or even think about downloading it, it’s a sin.
That being said, I’ll talk about drinking. Drinking in and of itself is not a sin, and I can’t find in the bible where it says it’s a sin. Personally, I don’t want to drink. I’ve tried it before, and I felt bad, so I don’t. Personal choice, I know. Now drinking until you are drunk is a sin. Can you remember everything you did while you drank? Absolutely everything… What you said to your friend? Who you looked at? Who you lusted over?
You don’t know, because you can’t remember. Can you confess those things? You don’t remember them, but God knows. Now, I’m not saying that I’ve confessed to every sin that I’ve made, but by reading the bible and listening to the conviction in me, I know that I need to confess about something, and I usually know what it is. Reading a verse can make me remember something horrible that I said to someone 5 years ago, or someone that I lusted over. You can’t do that if you were drunk and simply can’t remember it. So how can you claim the sin and ask for forgiveness? In my opinion a simple, God please forgive me for getting drunk and for sinning last night, works to an extent. You have to realize what you are asking for forgiveness for; otherwise you can’t begin to change your life to be more holy.
On another note, if a person gets to the point where they are drunk and falls asleep, just a thought now. Would they hear the trumpet calling you home? Is that the way you would want to be found? Personally, I don’t want God to find me drinking alone, but rather doing God work. I have not met a person that had convinced someone to come to Christ by drinking.
If our bodies are a temple of God, then is it right to desecrate it by being drunk? Just my little Wednesday afternoon snack.
Hey guys my name is Mike and I am a friend of rev. Sapok.
I must say this is quite the conversational starter!!!
Well I felt very lead by the Holy Spirit of God to come to you guys and share some truth about the awesome mistery. The controversy is about alcohol, but first let me point out some things that God showed me.
Brother Vitamen a, the first thing that I read that God showed me was your happyness at making people mad, " Its prolly gonna make several people mad... good." Umm as a Christian I know that we don't not take pleasure in the upsetting of others-aka not lead by Gods Holy Spirit. Then you said that "We’ll start with the central truth of the Christian faith…Jesus" again I was surprised by your words, being a slave to Christ we all SHOULD KNOW that all Christ ever wanted to give all Glory, Credit, Praise, Love, Passion, Devotion------TO GOD!!!!! His focus was always on His Father- GOd almighty- He woke up with GOd on his heart and mind and he went to sleep the same way. All Christ ever did was direct to us to the Father. You touched on the subject about saving the bad wine till last, know stop and really think why they would do this. Lets take it back a couple of years...all through out the Bible the Priests, Levites, the people and every other Jew would give their very BEST first fruits as a way of showing honor and glory to God-it was cutomary to serve your guest the best of what God has given you, even now we all do this, when you have company and you wish to honor them and glorify God you give them the best of what you have. therefore as a way of treating your guests the Jews and newly converted Christians would give the best of what GOd has given them....in that PARTICULAR CASE it happened to be the wine. My heart is sad by your words becuase you know as well as God knows that overconsuption is a SIN. You can't lie to yourself and if your hurting or find yourself confused its all comming from satan-God is the master of clarity-if there is CONFUSION its coming straight from the darkside. By what you have written about your personal beliefs I then KNOW that if you are practicing what you belive right now then your life CAN'T be producing GOOD fruit.
YOU NEED TO READ GALATIANS 5:16-22!!!!!!!!!
Don't you understand that drunkeness leads to loss of self-control-it is an act of the SINFULLLLLLL NATURE which is contrary to the SPIRIT becuase if you are lead by the SPIRIT-NO OVERDRINKING then you will a set of fruits that your life will produce and the Bible doesn't lie. Therefore you are not living by the SPIRIT in terms of your view on overdrinking, im am not sorry that my words are strong and direct, I truely am doin nothing else but LOVING YOU!!! and caring about your eternal investment!!!!! I know what I say is true, becuase they are not my words but GOD ALMIGHTYS, your soul is up for grabs my friend and this will never end untill we die...there will always be a fight and we have to constantly be finding God will every day and know beyond the shadow of a doubt that what ever we do next is okayed by God---now if you don't have that or don't know how to COMMUNICATE on that level with God give me a call Mike-704-678-6550 we are in this together and there is no excuse for not helping a brother or sister in NEED. You WILL be in my prayers friend and I pray in the name of Jesus of Christ that God unviels your eyes in regards to overconsuption of alcohol-
AMEN
Well I see Vitamin A's blog has caused quite a good bit of thought, haha. That is a good thing. Afterall his blog section is the Monday Munchies..Food for Thought.
Being the moderator of the site I figured I had better step in and write a comment and atleast defend Aaron somewhat after this "electronic bashing" that he has recieved, lol.
I think as Christ-Followers it is important for us to examine our views, beliefs, convictions, doctrine and basically whatever it is we believe, and do this on a regular basis. I think we should be able to verbalize and talk about these matters of debate, such as alochol, and do so with gentleness and respect. We gotta remember one thing though; the only thing that matters is that Christ came, died, rose, and is coming back. All this other stuff we spend time debating on doesn't really matter if we all agree on Jesus being the Savior and Lord of all of us. I'm tired of hearing about Churches splitting because of stupid crap like the color of the pews in the church, or what the Pastor thinks about Masons. I mean really, come on.
So to be fair to Vitamin A, I know him very well and his intention of this blog was not to tick people off, or take delight in making people mad, but rather cause all of us who read to think about what we believe and argue back if we wished.
Now in response to Mike's comments. I'm glad you are reading the site, and I hope you keep reading and posting comments as you wish. Buddy, I appreciate your passion and your zeal but you have to remember that passion and zeal alone doesn't make you right. I don't agree with Vitamin A's views but I'm surely not going to make a claim that his soul is up for grabs. You had also be careful when you claim something you say as the words of "GOD ALMIGHTY." Brother thats a very serious claim in and of itself, and when you make claims like that it had better be from God or else it makes you a false prophet and teacher! Also, I don't think its fair to Vitamin A that you could make a claim with such confidence that you KNOW his life is not producing GOOD fruit; another serious claim. I'm certain that if you talk to all the other persons who left comments that know Vitamin A on a personal basis, they could affirm the fact that his life is producing GOOD fruit and that he is devout follower of Christ. Now if this blog had questioned the diety of Christ or the reality of the Resurrection then you would have reason to make some strong claims, but just because you have a difference in opinion with Vitamin A, doesn't give you the authority of God to question the state of his soul. Not trying to bash ya Mike, because I think your passion and zeal for God can be of great benefit to everyone you meet, we just have to use our zeal for God in the right places and right times.
Now to the rest of yall who are still reading.
I say all of that to say this:
Believing that being drunk is a sin doesn't save us, it is our faith in Jesus Christ that saves us! We shouldn't split so many hairs on issues that are not central to our Christian faith. We should discuss them but not come to the point where we "bear up arms" and fight for the little details. So I'll end with this--
Would you die for your belief that drinking alcohol and being drunk is a sin?
I wouldn't.
But I would die for my belief that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that He came, died, and rose from the dead to save the souls of all who would put their faith in Him. Would You?
Just a thought...was wine different then than it is today?
Could it be that the water was not pure in that day as in many countries today? Some suggest that wine in those days is a mixture of water and wine because the little wine in it purifies the water making it okay to drink.
Another thought...what is the purpose behind drinking...because everyone else is or because you had a bad day or what is the motivation for drinking? I think this is a good indication of why it would be wrong or right.
Our bodies are a temple, shouldn't we do our best to keep that temple clean and pure? Some would say that a beer a day is good or whatever, yeah so is water but not everyone listens.
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