Monday Munchies...Food for Thought: Once Saved Always Saved?
Grace…God’s free gift to the entire world. A free gift! Nothing we can do to earn or take it away…right? Are the idea of salvation and grace separated? The bible tells us that salvation is a work in progress (Phi 2:12). Grace is a gift, the end. It is given by and sustained by God so it cannot fail, not ever.
Eph. 1:4-8 tells us that grace and salvation are inseparable. Eph. 2:4-9 tell us about how amazing this grace is. It doesn’t matter what kind of sins anyone has ever committed, God’s grace is enough. So then, does this grace continue through salvation, in other words, is “once saved always saved” a feasible idea? Yes. It’s hard to believe that someone can be saved, become the worse sinner there ever was and still get to heaven. That’s grace. Now there is a question to be addressed of if someone really became a believer, had faith in Christ, and knew Him as Savior and Lord if they would be able to become the worse person in history, I think not. However, even if this did happen, grace is enough. It’s amazing, beyond my imagination, but it’s true. I don’t understand how a God can be so merciful and loving, but it’s true! John 10:25-30 says that Jesus doesn’t loose what has been given to Him. When you are saved, you belong to Jesus. Therefore, once you are saved, you are always saved. How can this be?!
I don’t understand, that’s how big God’s grace is. There is danger here, however. As amazing as God’s grace is, what a crime it would be to cheapen it. A close relationship with Jesus won’t cheapen grace. And that’s what we should strive for, even if our salvation is secure. Doesn’t it make sense to try and be close friends with the person you will spend eternity with?
9 comments:
This is a very heavy topic. I don't think that anyone who has an answer is right, becuase we are not God. Can someone who encounters God's Grace through Christ Jesus also lose the same Grace? In terms of a relationship I think some people do genuily come to God and have a dynamic relationship with Him, and then at some point in their lives turn away from that relationship. Do they lose their salvation? We don't know.
I know that God has saved me. Yet there are moments in my life where I may allow sin into my life. I am not perfect, and daily I have to face my Saviour with how I am taking hold of the Grace that has been bestowed upon me. Paul says "continue to work our your slavation with fear and termebling, for its God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose." (Pillipians 2:12b-13)
I think it is important for Christians to constanlty examine our lives, do we see evidence of our salvation? Are we bearing fruits for the kingdom of God? And most importantly are we growing in our relationship with God? I think sometimes we as Christians think of Grace as merly a gift, but it is more than that it is a free gift but has to be taken care of. Are Salvation becomes more than a price paid, but a life that has to be lived because of the price, which reflects the grace given.
Peace in Christ.
Vitamin A and Jerry both make some good points. I want to add a little bit on this.
I believe that the ability to lose your salvation is minor compared to your actual salvation. So by saying that, I believe that a Christian can hold either position. But there are a few concerns with both of them.
First, if you believe you can lose your salvation, then you have to avoid the error of trying to keep your salvation by your works.
Second, if your once saved always saved, then you have to avoid cheapening God’s grace as Vitamin A pointed out.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. (John 10:27)
We are not one of God’s sheep because we follow Him; we follow Him BECAUSE we are His Sheep. This is a common problem that I hear all the time and it leads to salvation by works.
Even though I believe you can take either side of this topic, I’m gonna take a chance and choose a side and state what I think about it. I believe that once you’re saved you’re always saved. I believe that the only way a person can lose their salvation is by rejecting it or committing apostasy. No amount of sin they commit, nor the devil, can pluck them from God’s hand. (John 10:28) If a Christian goes on later to become a terrible person, God’s grace can cover over their sins. Whether or not they were a good person is not how they attained their salvation in the first place. But this brings up the question of whether or not they were “true” Christians in the first place (as Vitamin A brought up). If you think you can loose your salvation then it gets to the point to of how good do we need to be or how many good works to do in order to keep our salvation.
"They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us." (1 John 2:19)
I believe that a “true” Christian, for lack of a better word, can not lose their salvation through anything they do or don’t do, just like there is nothing they can do or not do to gain that salvation. They only way to lose it, is for the person to flat out reject it, walking in darkness for years can lead to this rejection, but walking in darkness in and of its self does not cause you to lose your salvation. But don’t get me wrong, I am not promoting sin, just as Christ does not promote sin. This does open the door to the problem I mentioned earlier about cheapening grace (Romans 6:1).
17"If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"[d] (Galatians 2:17-21)
But it is God’s will that we be sanctified, and not continue in our old ways.
"3It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; 4that each of you should learn to control his own body[a] in a way that is holy and honorable, 5not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God;" (1 Thessalonians 4:3-5)
"Therefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come." (2 Corinthians 5:17)
But I think we slip into error when we try to keep our salvation through our works.
"You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" (Galatians 3: 1-3)
In response to Philippians 2:12-13.
"2Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose."
In this verse Paul is talking to Christians. He is not denying justification by faith, because they already have salvation. This verse has to deal with the sanctification part of salvation not justification. Paul is saying that God’s part is done; the atonement is completed, and there is nothing that can change that, and so now it is your turn to follow and obey. To paraphrase John 10:27 again, Jesus is saying now that you are Mine, follow Me.
"28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" 29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." (John 6: 28-29)
Wow... Another good topic.
Everyone makes great points. I think that this thought "Once Saved Always Saved" can be false leading to some. Does this mean that you should not ask for forgiveness after you sin?
If Hitler, for instance, was a Christian and then began to kill all the Jews, then he is sinning. No question. If he doesn't ask for forgiveness, then I don't think that he can be saved. Now, I'm not God, so, it's only my opinion. Now, if he was to ask God for forgiveness of his sins, then... yes he can be forgiven (depending on what is in his heart).
"For Christ also died for sins once and for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit." 1st Peter 3:18
Jesus died for all, all who accept him are saved. Can a person that begins spiraling into darkness be forever saved? What about a person that chooses to believe a second religion, or idea about God, but does not dismiss Jesus? What if they commit a sin that ultimately takes their life? Is Judas in heaven? When Judas felt remorse for betraying Jesus, I'm sure that he asked for forgiveness, and ultimately couldn't forgive himself. So he killed himself... Suicide is a sin, you cannot ask for forgiveness for killing yourself. Is that a free ticket to heaven? No, of course it's not. If it is, then what are we doing here?
"For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgement and THE FURY OF THE FIRE THAT WILL CONSUME THE AVERSARIES" Hebrews 10:26-27
Also,
"For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for who's sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned." Hebrews 6:4-8
So, you can't just say that your saved forever, and continue to sin without some sort of remorse. A crop must continually be tilled and weeded to produce anything fruitful. If it is not, the field goes barren and nothing can grow. The field is of no use, because it has become overgrown. Should the field be worked on so that some crop can be produced, then the work is not in vein. The verse says that the field is close to being cursed, but in the end, if untilled, it is ultimately burned.
Did Jesus die for our sins? Yes. Does he forgive us should we commit a sin? Yes, depending on what is in your heart when you ask.
"For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what is promised. FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY. BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul." Hebrews 10:36-39
So, can one that is saved, revert back to his lost self...? Yes. Does he remain saved? That is ultimately between him/her and God. But I do know that by living by my faith in Jesus, and the fact that He has saved me, there is no question where I will go. Don't take this out of hand, I cannot go around saying that I believe in Jesus and still go around having sex while not married, getting drunk, stealing candy, or lusting over the girl across the street.
To me, and most, that is considered sinning willfully. If a homosexual joins the church, and continues to have relations with another male while knowing the truth of the bible, he is sinning willfully. There no longer remains a sacrifice for the sin, if he continues to do so without remorse.
Like last time, I spoke of a desensitizing of conviction. The person had hardened their hearts so much that they no longer feel the conviction of their willful sinning. Does that mean that its not a sin, no, they just don't think that its wrong anymore. This is yet another crack that I think Christians fall into with new methodologies and beliefs that arise in the Christian community...
For those that have trouble with willfully sinning:
"Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you." James 4:7
I will leave with one of my favorite versus, that if followed, will ensure that you are not unfruitful in Christ.
"Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence,
in your faith supply moral excellence,
and in your moral excellence, knowledge,
and in your knowledge, self-control,
and in your self-control, perseverance,
and in your perseverance, godliness,
and in your godliness, brotherly kindness,
and in your brotherly kindness, love.
For if these quantities are your and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ" 2nd Peter 1:5-8
I think you might have a narrow view on the power and the totality that the cross has on the atonement for sins.
Asking for forgiveness is not what takes our sins away. It is faith in the blood of Christ that justifies us and makes us without fault or blemish before a Holy God. (Lev. 17:11, 1 Sam 2:28, 1 Peter 1:19, 1 Peter 2:24, Heb 9:22, Isaiah 53, 1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:10, Romans 3:23-26 Matt 26:28, Eph 1:7)
I’m glad you mentioned Hebrews 10 because it explains in great detail what Christ has done for us. Chapter 10 starts off by saying that animal sacrifices had to be offered constantly because they did not have the power to remove sin. It is basically saying that because these animal sacrifices were not enough to deal with Sin (all sins ever committed and ever will be committed) just sins (present sins), it had to be repeated over and over. If animal sacrifices were enough then it would not have to be repeated all the time. It goes on to say that Jesus sacrifice was enough to cover Sin once and for all, so it doesn’t need to be repeated. It goes on to say in verses 7-10 that through Christ’s perfect observance of the law and his death and resurrection, that faith in this allows us to become a beneficiary of this perfect obedience and counted as righteous under the law.
Can you get a sense of the power that the blood of Jesus has? Through His blood all of our past, present, and future sins are forgiven, and God remembers them no more (verse 17). Jesus’ sacrifice was a one time thing and it doesn’t happen daily as it does with the Catholic Church. There are no more sacrifices necessary for the forgiveness of sin. This is the heart of the Gospel because without this there is no deliverance from sin.
Needing to ask for forgiveness after each sin brings up a lot of problems.
First, God doesn’t see differences in sin. Murder is equal with hating somebody, and adultery is the same as a little white lie. There is no classification of sin with God as there is with us. With that being said a true disciple who is following Jesus daily, could commit a small sin and then a few seconds later die in a car wreck and not have time to ask for forgiveness. I don’t see any difference between this and the example with Hitler. Your faith in the blood of Christ forgives you of all past, present, and future sins. To say that the blood of Christ can not cover the sin right before the car wreck, or suicide, or killing many Jews, is a narrow view of the power that has been given to the blood of Christ.
Second, I think it brings God down to our level. God is eternal and not within “time” as we know it. He sees the past, present, and future all at the same time (as in one of Vitamin A’s earlier post). To say that you’re not saved if you don’t ask for forgiveness of each sin, is basically saying that God didn’t know you were going to commit that sin before you committed it. God is all knowing and he knows the sins that we have committed, are committing, and are going to commit, when we accept Christ as Lord, but here is the kicker, he still forgives us of all of them.
Now you must understand that this does not mean we are not to ask for forgiveness or feel no remorse for our sin, because this sin grieves the Holy Spirit and it hinders God’s ability use you. But that is a different topic and not what I am addressing here.
In reference to Hebrews 10:26-27, this verse deals with a deliberate apostate who was once a true Christian as does Hebrews 6, and not with a backsliding Christian as you mention. This is a person who rejects Christ and his atonement for sins. If you reject this sacrifice, the only true sacrifice for sins (as Hebrews proves earlier in the Chapter,) then there remains no sacrifice that is enough to remove all your sins (because you rejected the only sacrifice that could).
I believe that a Christian can make mistakes or deliberately sin and start backsliding. But, if he doesn’t renounce his faith in the atoning power of Jesus’ blood then he is not hopeless. His is in a dangerous position but God’s grace is more than enough to cover over their sins. Now this does bring up the question of whether or not he was a “true” Christian, but that is not for me to decide, that is between them and God. I am only saying that if they were a “true” Christian and that happened then they are still forgiven by God because of the Grace that he has given them through faith in his Son.
But the deliberate apostate is hopeless because after being saved by grace, and received the knowledge of Truth, he rejected the Truth of the Gospel and the power of Jesus’ blood therefore there remains no more sacrifice for his sin.
"How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:29)
With this and the tone of the passage, I believe that this is not just a general backsliding case where the person commits “regular” sins so to speak, such as lust, adultery, and drunkenness and so on, but sins where the people are reverting back to old religions or practices such as animal sacrifices, tweaking the Gospel that was presented to them, forsaking assembly, and just flat out denying the gospel. And the author of Hebrews is pointing out how serious it is to reject Jesus, because it leads to having no sacrifice for your sins.
"18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 5:18-21)
"1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?(Romans 6:1-2)"
"1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit." (Romans 8: 1-4)
"38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[m] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:38-39)
Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who DOES the will of my Father who is in heaven.
I understand where Walk is coming from. And I know, with all my heart, that God's grace is sufficient for all things. I will not deny that I may have a narrow view, that is just a perspective. Everyone has a narrow view. A person on one ridge of a mountain does not see the same things as a person standing on an opposite ridge. Everyone has unseen creeks, rivers, cliffs, and obstacles in their view that they cannot see.
And with that I can't really rebuke anything that you said about me. But I can help you in seeing my perspective from my ridge.
I look in my church, even my sunday school class, even at other Christians around me and I wonder what is in their heart sometimes. How can a guy that I look up to defend an elderly couple against offensive teenagers, and yet turn and lust after his girlfriend? How can a pastor of a church go and look at pornography? Now their own sins are between them and God.
I look at everyone and I can't help but wonder where their heart is. I believe that if your heart is not in the right place, God knows. If I speed away from a person because they cut me off in traffic, I may not ask for forgivness until I cool off, but I do realize that what I did was uncalled for and ask for forgivness immediately.
So, here is another example that puts things into my perspective, my ridge.
A middle aged chrisitan male, with three beautiful kids and a loving wife, is away on a work trip. His family is at home having a wonderful time. The father is spending his free time at a local restaruant, and is approached by a woman. They drink a little, and leave for the hotel. Then he procedes to seduce the woman.
Ok, so this is an outrageous story. What does that man do if Jesus was to come that instant? His trumpet has called... I don't think the mans heart was anywhere right with God. Does the fact that he drank before he seduced the woman could have clouded his judgement matter? I don't think so (again, this is my perspective). It's the fact that he disregarded God's word, and still knowing that the action was wrong, he continued in the act.
So, let's look at another sin, because adultry is the same as a little white lie. You are shopping in a store and an old friend stops you. You can't stand him, so you end up giving him a false address or phone number. Should you ask for forgiveness?
If all sins are measured the same, then you should confess all sins. Not just the really big ones... "Sorry that I did not defend you when my friends laughed at the teenager that fell at chruch. I didn't want to look like an idiot or that I may have cared in front of my friends..."
Now, about the "regular sins". What exactly are they? To me, they are things that you did before you became a believer. They are anything and everything, from steeling a pack of Skittles, to lusting over the girl next door, to telling a friend to "suck my ****", to... you name it. When you commit these, after you have been saved, then you are reverting back to your old self. This has an exeption. I believe that if you are truly trying to make an effort with God's help, then you have a safety margin.
For example, a saved homosexual within the church is trying his hardest, with God's help, to stop his sexual interest with those of the same sex (hm... yet another hot topic in todays church world). I know that God knows our struggles, and that we will fall. So, I think that he forgives us for the fact that we will fall every once and a while. But it is when the homosexual ultimatley disregards God's word when He says to turn from your old ways, and the homosexual begins to have intercourse with those of the same sex.
Another example, a mother struggles to survive and feed her family. She has to steal bread to feed her children, she asks for forgiveness from God daily because she steals the food daily. Versus, a college student steals a pack of skittles because are need a snack during class. Two very different senarios, same sin, and yet they are looked on very differently (at least in my eyes). Where was the heart of the woman? Where was the heart of the college student?
It is ultimately a form of knowing God's word and living by God's word. To say that you can disregard God's word and still live a life that is willingly sinful is flat out wrong.
I know that this verse refers to the Lord's supper, but to me, it extends further. It extends from Jesus, ultimately to salvation.
"27 Therefore whoever eates the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. 28But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup." - 1 Cor. 11:27-28
Now the context of the verse is that Paul is confronthing those that are going to the church to eat the bread and drink the wine, but I think the same can be said for those that come to church to eat the body and drink the blood of Christ. They do it without the right heart.
Like I said before, the statement only holds up to those who's hearts are in the right place. But if one is continually sinning willfully, i.e. you know that its wrong, and you have given up all hope of stopping the specific sin, then the statement doesn't hold up.
Where was the heart of the homosexual? Where was the heart of the woman stealing the bread? Where was the heart of the college student? And finally, where is your heart? (the last question is directed to all persons that read this blog)
I wanted to add, that I don't want to give anyone the impression that it's ok to do sin even though God says it’s wrong.
It's not ok to continue to live without regard to the Word of God. God's Grace may be free and able to overcome any gap that we can create, but why abuse the privilege? Why test God’s Grace and patience with your own salvation?
Here is another look at it. Take a look at 1 John 5:13 and John 17:3.
“I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.” (1 John 5:13)
“3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” (John 17:3)
This is saying that we have eternal life now if we believe in Jesus. It is not something that starts when we get to heaven; it starts now, knowing Jesus is eternal life. Now, if eternal life starts when we believe in Jesus, then when does it end, a day? A week? 10 years? I think logically eternal life last forever, as long as you believe in Jesus, so by definition cannot be lost.
“28I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." (Mark 3:28-29)
All sins against God and man can be forgiven by faith in Jesus, but rejecting the witness and testimony that the Spirit has for Jesus (rejecting Jesus’ claim to be God and forgive sins) is unforgivable. What could be so bad that would cause God to “unforgive” what he has already forgiven you for and paid for?
Now I am definitely not an expert on Biblical Hermeneutics nor do I claim to be, but I do think that there are many verses that argue for eternal security.
I really commend you on your view that sin is serious and God takes sin seriously, it is becoming rare today and not being taught that much. Now were afraid to teach that side of God, it might offend some one. Were taught that we can’t help it, and God understands and doesn’t mind, and try to make everybody feel good about their sin. I agree with you wholeheartedly and that we should confess and ask for forgiveness daily, this is absolutely necessary to becoming a godly person. As I mentioned in an earlier response, this is the main problem with being “once saved always saved”, it can lead to the abuse of Grace.
Maybe I don’t understand where you are coming from. Now forgive me if it sounds like I am putting words into your mouth, that is not my intent, I am just trying to understand you perspective. Are you saying that having the right heart is what saves you? Anyone can have the right heart or motives in any task without having a relationship with Jesus. Non-Christians can help the homeless with the right heart and pure motives. A right heart doesn’t mean that they sinless.
I am also having trouble understanding some of your examples.
Are you implying that the heart of the man committing adultery at the instant Christ returns results in losing salvation? I believe that his salvation is dependent upon his sincere faith in Jesus at the time he confessed that Jesus is Lord. I don’t believe that the Christian life is meant to be lived in fear and uncertainty of your salvation. I believe that what happened to the guy in that example could easily happen to me or any other person reading this blog. In my opinion that kind of Christian life is one that is still almost a slave to sin in a way. The Christian life is about being freed from sin and death, and given birth to life and being slaves to righteousness. The effect of Grace is realizing that you were hopeless without Christ and wanting to honor God’s sacrifice with good works and holy living, it’s not about making sure you don’t do this and don’t do that, and wondering if you haven’t asked for forgiveness of some sin, and getting bogged down when you commit a sin. Repent of that sin, know that God doesn’t like it and there may be some consequences of that sin, but that God has forgiven you of it, don’t abuse Grace, and keep moving on and trying to honor God, because chances are it is not gonna be the last.
When I referred to “regular” sins I was meaning sins such as telling lies, stealing, gossip, lust, pride, envy, greed, murder and so on. Basically, sins that all Christians are guilty of to some degree. What I meant by sins other than the regular sins are sins that basically make you not a Christian. Flat our rejecting God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the bodily resurrection of Christ, adding a non-biblical spin on Jesus such as He was created, was brothers with Satan, was not sinless, the need for works to save you, anything that creates a Jesus that is false. These are sins that Christians are not guilty of (or they wouldn’t be Christians) but that non-Christians are guilty of along with the “regular” sins also.
You mentioned that these “regular” sins are sins you commit before you’re saved and if you commit them after you are saved you are reverting back to your old self. Then you said that if you are trying then you have a safety margin. What exactly do you mean by that? I believe that you can have full certainty of your salvation, not just a safety margin.
These regular sins are cause by our evil desires and nature. When we become a Christian we take part in Jesus’ divine nature. (2 Peter 1:4) and are a new creation!
“17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! (2 Corinthians 5:17)”
On earth our sinful nature(old self) and our new divine nature (new self) are at war with each other (Romans 7) and it is not until we die that we lose the sinful nature and the divine nature becomes complete. (Romans 6: 4-7, 1 John 3:2) Committing sin after you are saved it not reverting back to your old (unsaved) nature, it is just apart of you battling your old self with the Holy Spirit and new nature. You can’t win, but Christ has won for you, and you are already forgiven and found without sin before him. When you die this becomes complete and you can stand without fault in God’s presence because of Jesus.
I just think that being able to loose your salvation brings up a lot of problems. There is no certainty, where do you draw the line with sin? Adultery, white lies, 1 murder 10 murders? How many good works do you need to do? Feed 100 homeless, or 1000 homeless, go on 5 mission trips and help an old lady across the street? Are we judged against each other? How do you be fair to physically disabled people who can’t do as much good works as a perfectly able person, or people who believe and ask for forgiveness on their death bed?
But like I said in an earlier response, the ability to loose our salvation is secondary to our salvation itself. This has been an issue going on for years between the Calvinist views, Arminian views, and so on. I agree chrsblchr, it is hard to see your pastor or people you know and trust succumb to pornography, adultery and so on. But it just brings into perspective that it can happen to anybody, and nobody is perfect. We are all hopeless without God. Praise God that he made us alive when we were dead in our sins, that He forgives us no matter what we have done.
“1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.” (Romans 8: 1-4)
OK, so I know I'm a few days late. That's what school work can do to you...
My view is that many will say they are saved. Now whether their heart was true when they proclaimed Christ, I cannot tell. I can only hope and pray that they found Christ. I had a discussion with some people the other day on whether Judas was in heaven or hell. I have my suspicions that he his in hell. Now, I know... how can I say that, but...
Looking in Matthew 26:14-25, Judas agrees to betray Jesus for 30 pieces of silver, not a lot of money then... especially for Jesus, the man the chief priests want with a passion. Judas, a trusted man (why else would Jesus trust Judas with the finances?) decides to give Jesus to the priests and begins to look for an opportunity. When Jesus sits with the disciples he acknowledges that someone at the table will betray them. Judas, with the other apostles says, "Surely not I, Lord?" When Jesus states (v24) "The Son of Man is to go, just as it is written of Him; but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born."
So, Judas has the brunt of God's wrath. I don't think that Judas is in heaven. I do not know if Judas truly believed in Jesus. One would think that he did know that Jesus was the Son of God. Judas had been given the ability to lay hands on people and heal, he had his feet washed by Jesus, and was sitting at a place of honor. Yet, he betrays Jesus for a little money. Did he truly know Jesus? He spent 3 years with Jesus... For a man to spend 3 years with Jesus and witness miracles that I can only imagine, only to have Jesus say "It would have been good for that man if he had not been born."
So my argument is not that if you sin too much that you can lose your salvation. My argument is what is in your heart? I know that Jesus is my Lord and Savior. I will confess till the day that I die.
I agree that sin is looked too lightly upon today. I have heard someone regards grace as a buffet table, you can sin constantly and still receive grace. As true as that is, what kind of testimony is that? Is that pleasing to God?
Now, looking at the verse, John 12:47 "If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world."
I can make an argument that it doesn't matter what you do, your saved, as long as you believe in Jesus.
But reading further in John 15:1-11
Jesus Is the Vine--Followers Are Branches
1"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3"You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
7"If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
8"My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.
9"Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.
10"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
11"These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full."
So, Jesus is not judging here, God is. If one does not abide in Jesus, are utterly destroyed. Several commentary have been posted on this chapter. They also give other chapters that speak the same message. Look at Matthew 3:7-10, Matthew7:15-23, and Mark 4:1-20. All are words of Jesus. No, he does not judge, God does. Paul also addresses the issue in Romans 11:13-24. All of the commentaries that I have read agree that Judas was one of these branches that gets cut off. Again, "...but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!" (Luke 22:22)
Everyone has different fruits. Nobody is the same, by God's design.
My argument, is and has been, that if a person just stops in their walk, they are not producing any more fruit. Eventually, their harvest will wither, and their branch will die. The only thing to do then is to cut it.
Now, knowing that we all sin and some, maybe most, try to combat it with Jesus' help; we are still producing fruit. But those that say they believe in Jesus and continue to live their lives without changing, may not produce fruit.
This is a very complex thing, and I don't like arguing it. To me, we shouldn't have to worry about this if we are truly changed. Those that need to worry are those that don't follow God's commandments. How else are we do produce good fruit?
Keeping the traits mentioned in 2nd Peter 1:5-8 will keep you fruitful in Christ. These traits are noticed in those that walk continually with Jesus. The are not noticeable in those that are separated or that have separated themselves from God.
If you are sure of your beliefs, then don't worry about it, I don't. But, I cannot help but think that there are some around me that are going down this path.
For an in depth commentary (one of many) go to http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=2381
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